meta morning

[salixbabylon]

For some reason my f-list's posts this morning while I was drinking my tea made me think again about the big question of why I've never been a BFG or a well-known writer or even just a generically popular online persona.

I think it comes down to be being too mellow for fandoms.

I hate flame wars and avoid them. I don't read them out of prurient interest. I don't care who called whom a backstabbing bitch or who was accused of plagiarism and whether it's true or not. I maintain the policy that if fewer people would get involved, the flames would die down faster. I refuse to fan them myself.

I also don't worship BNFs. If I'm really awed by someone's writing, I do tend to gush a bit in email or LJ comments, but I don't tag along after them and gush about everything they write. I maintain that someone can write a story that really resonates with me and I think is brilliant, and also write some kind of crappy fics. I won't lie and say I thought the crappy fics were brilliant. I don't think anyone on the planet only produces brilliant work.

I also don't make Best Friends with people online very fast. Furthermore, once I am close friends with someone, I don't automatically hate everyone they get into a catfight with. If I'm BFFs with Doris and she and Mildred get into a brawl, I'm not going to automatically hate Mildred and tell everyone I know that they should hate her too. Besides, maybe Doris is wrong. I try to be supportive and loving to my friends, but that doesn't mean I can't see that occasionally they might be petty or judgmental or just plain wrong about something. That's ok - sometimes I'm petty and mean and make mistakes too. I still love my friends even when I think they're making asses out of themselves. I hope for the same patience from them, along with a subtle "You might consider that you're not right about this" once I can take hearing that without flying off the handle.

Also, sometimes I disagree with my friends. Maybe Gertrude thought "Troy" was the best movie ever. I thought it sucked. I will always think Colin Firth is unattractive. I don't like most scifi. I don't like babies or weddings/commitment ceremonies in my porn. I'm not into big muscly men. I like pale pretty boys, preferably in schoolboy uniforms. I think the straight women who are allergic to het have some issues about their own sexuality to work out. I have opinions, and when I disagree with someone about them, I try to be respectful and then redirect the conversation. We don't have to agree about everything. How could we broaden each others' horizons if we did?

When I stopped writing so much VigOrli and went back to writing HP, my ego took a huge blow. In HP, I don't have many readers and definitely no fans. I haven't put the effort into crossposting my fics all over the place or in commenting on every fic I read in hopes that the authors will come and check me out. I do fee a little sad to know that the majority of my recent work, whether it's 50kw or HP or whatever, isn't being read. I feel like I've matured as a writer and that I'm getting better, and it's a little sad to be mostly known for works that are 2+ years old and not for anything since.

But I've also realized that I just don't care enough about being a BNF to ever be one. I'm not a worshiper-of-BNFs or a best-friend-maker or a flame warrior. I'm ok with being obscure, even though I do feel under-appreciated some days. I'm not saying I'm "above it all" - I'd like to be popular again. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be liked, and I do want that.

But I'm so much more comfortable with who I am than pretending to be someone I'm not. Wanting to be a BNF and not being one doesn't frustrate me as much anymore. I know that my writing skills will continue to improve and that someday they will be appreciated. Maybe I'll become a novelist. Maybe writing will make me a more eloquent speaker.

Maybe it will teach me to let go of attachment to outcome and to focus on the joy of writing, just for myself.

I didn't mean for this to turn into such a long post. It was just kind of a where-I-am-right-now-in-my-head diary thing.

Comments

[nverland]

that last line? I need to learn that one myself.
(I read a lot of your non V/O stuff, I just rarely comment to anyone)

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Some days that lsat line is more true than others. ;) I am not always as zen as I want to be. I guess that gives me something to keep working toward.

Maybe I should install more hit counters, rather thanjust judging by feedback. I'm glad you're reading - thank you. *hug*

[arrowthroughme.livejournal.com]

I think the problem with fanfiction is that it's next to impossible to read something outside one's own fandom.

Ugh, that sounds too closed off. What I mean is, I personally find it very difficult to read stories within e.g. the HP fandom because the figures don't interest me. I find myself 'translating' everything to people I like. And that, to me, is stressful, which is not what I read fanfic for. Funnily enough if there are stories written neutrally, not within a specific fandom, I read them easily enough. I read novels all the time. In my head the 'hero' might take on my favourite movie star's looks, but then again, if the novel is strong enough, he won't.

I'm not really trying to make a point here, I'm just thinking out loud about some things you said. I'm totally impressed that you say that your writing is getting better, but I still can't read HP. But then, one day you'll leave all fandoms behind in your writing I guess. I hope, in a way.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

I know a lot of people are very "loyal" to their fandoms. I tend to have several going at a time, and if I'm not interested in a fandom it's either because I didn't particularly like the book/movie/tv show or that I haven't seen it.

But I understand that not everyone is like that. If you can't imagine it or it's just not sexy to you, that's ok. I know when I watch porn I'm always re-casting the participants as certain actors or fictional characters. :)

I'm always pleased for others to think about what I say, even if they disagree or their experience is simply different. No pressure here to read outside your fandoms. And I'm working on writing more original fiction stuff right now!

[megyal]

Hmm.

I understand totally what you're saying about flame-wars and being between 2 'friends'. I was in that position more than once and I told them both that I would still talk to the other because I liked them both on their own merits and their argument had nothing to do with me.

I've only read your HP work though; haven't got around to your other fandom.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

It's to bad so many people seem to expect their friends to lose their critical thinking abilities. I'm glad you don't. :)

No pressure to read the non-HP stuff if that's not what floats your boat. I'm working on some long HP fics for the near future!

[megyal]

Thats cool. I like to give every fandom at least one chance. Thanks to painless_j, I've been pulled into Pet Shop of Horrors. It's a compelling thing.

Damn you, Painless J.

But my icon denotes my motto in life! So really, most fandoms are met with a gleaming eye.

[soar38.livejournal.com]

LOL I agree with you. I like to write what I like, read what I like, make a few friends here and there, some of them becoming very fulfilling friendships with people I would trust implicitly.

I can't be arsed to get involved in the shit that comes with fandom, I'm not in it for the long haul, I'm not going to worship at the altar or people's egos.

As with real life friendships, people you meet via the net can be really good friends, but there's no rule that in life, your friends and loved ones have to have the same interests and like and dislikes as you, it makes us all different, and more interesting. For example, I have never gotten into the HP fandom but I like you just fine. :-) *hugs*

I'm hoping to get a good bonus at Christmas from my company. If that pans out, it might be nice to plan a visit somewhere in the spring of next year since I didn't manage it this year. ;-p

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

I can't be arsed to get involved in the shit that comes with fandom, I'm not in it for the long haul, I'm not going to worship at the altar or people's egos.

Amen sister! :)

I'm thrilled to still have you as a friend, even if we've drifted to different fandoms. You're always welcome to visit any time - I'd love to take you hiking in the forests that remind me of Middle Earth.

[soar38.livejournal.com]

Friendship is definitely more than fandoms. :-)

If my company bonus scheme is generous at the end of the year I might be able to make it out next spring, which I'd love, and I'd love to go hiking with you. :-)

[uinendolothen.livejournal.com]

You're one of the most insightful people I know.

I've been thinking about writing original fiction rather than fanfics. Since I started writing Phantom fics rather than LotR fics, very few people read what I write. (And I didn't have that many people reading my stuff in the first place.)

So, if no one's reading anyway, I reckon I ought to write for the sake of writing, to hopefully improve as a writer. I've no idea what I'd do with what I end up writing, but I think I'll feel better about what I'm writing.

If you write any original works, I'd be most interested in reading them. It's always a pleasure to read a well crafted story.

*hugs*

I've often wondered about the blind devotion people sometimes have for others. As you've said, no one is perfect all the time.

And friendships would be terribly boring if everyone was in complete agreement on everything. (Although, I wish some of my friends would lay off the making fun angle - if they don't like the actors I like, can't they just leave it at that? It's fun for them to tease but not so fun for me to be teased. At least, not as frequently as some of them insist upon doing.) *sigh*

*hugs you again*

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

*blush* I don't think of myself as insightful, just obsessed with naval-gazing. ;)

I'm currently trying my hand at writing original fiction and it's been an interesting shift. I think letting go of the need for feedback (which I'm still working on) is important. With "real" publications you don't get that. I think if I were still in VigOrli and getting lots of fb, I probably never would have been willing to try it. (If you're interested, my nothing-there-yet LJ for origfic is alix_bekins.)

Teasing can be very hurtful, even when you know it's not intended as such. I hope the people who are doing it will lay off you now. *hug*

[uinendolothen.livejournal.com]

You *are* insightful. I say so.

I friended alix_bekins ... hope you don't mind!

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

*smooches* You're so sweet! And I don't mind a bit - welcome to another one of my adventures!

[todd-loves-mc.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean on the majority of these points. I myself have found that since i stopped writing in the lotr fandom and viggo/orli specifically that i get next to no comments for anything i write anymore which is a bit sad because i never really know if anyone is reading them or not.

i don't personally read a great deal of stuff at the moment outside of the torchwood fandom or dr who at the moment but even there i'm selective in my reading. from time to time i'll still read vig/orli but right now it's not something that jumps out at me and screams at me to read it.

Harry Potter fics i tend not to read but that mainly because i'm not into the pairings, its not to say that i wouldn't ever read any some time.

but like you say when no one comments its hard to know if you have really improved anything or not.

[todd-loves-mc.livejournal.com]

forgot to add this before. when i write now it tends to be a mixture of real person slash between the dr who actors and torchwood actors, specifically David and John, or John/Gareth or all three or FPS with Jack/Ianto or Jack/The Doctor (Ten) or Jack/Ianto/Doctor.

so not really everyones thing but it gives me an outlet as its been so long since ive written anything since my lotr muses deserted me

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Readers - it's been brought to my attention before that only a slim percentage of readers actually comment. I'm going to try to remember to install hit counters on all my work, so at least I'll know that people are seeing my fics, even if they aren't commenting. I sympathize - it can feel very demoralizing to not know if anybody is out there.

There are some pairings and some fandoms that are popular. If a writer isn't part of that, it can be hard to attract readers, no matter how good or innovative they are.

Whatever you're excited about writing is what you should write, I think. Writing for popularity is like writing for money, IMO - it tends to suck the creativity right out of the writer. Good for you, for sticking with what interests you. :)

[todd-loves-mc.livejournal.com]

a hit counter might be a good idea.

i know what you mean about people and fandoms having select groups that seem to get all the attention.

i must admit i know what you mean about writing for popularity and alternately the money aspect. It does really get me down as i can't seem to tailor my tastes to what others want as it just stresses me the hell out and makes for a crap fic in my own opinion.

I just do what ive always done, write what turns me on. lol for example the tentacle fics ive written in the past i know there isn't really a big fanbase for them but i really like them myself.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Just do what you like and eventually it will all work out. That's my new motto and I hope it 's true, anyway. :)

[kialur.livejournal.com]

I've been in the entertainment business for close to 15 years now, mostly booking bands, and sometimes it happens that only a few people come to see the concert. If it's an "up-and-coming" band thats playing they tend to become all bitchy and whiney, and want to cancel the show altoghether. The real pros on the other hand says that these 10 people went through the effort of coming here and paying for it, so we should give them the best show we can. ;)

Even if there's only a handful of people intrested in your work, do it for them. Or, just do it for yourself.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Even if there's only a handful of people interested in your work, do it for them. Or, just do it for yourself.

Very well said - an excellent illustration of letting go of ego! :)

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to reply to most of it, because I know I have done these things you enumerate and explaining myself and debating isn't productive, but I wanted to comment on this:

I think the straight women who are allergic to het have some issues about their own sexuality to work out.

What do you mean by 'allergic to het'? I personally and many people won't read het about characters or people we slash. I said something about this rather recently, in fact.

I do, however, have shelves of heterosexual romance novels, porn, and/or sex manuals of varying quality. I just don't "ship" any fandom het couples or care to read het fanfiction as one of my hobbies.

I am one of the people who pretty much only reads Viggorli, and I know that can be annoying to you because you write so many other pairings. I don't read anyone else's other pairings no matter how much I like their writing. I haven't been able, or even really want, to get into the myriad other fandoms and pairings happening around my flist, and so with my finite resources of time and energy I choose to read stuff that makes me happy. That means I have to give a lot of stuff by people I like a miss, just like they give my stuff a miss. What can you do?

That being said, writing for writing's sake can be lonely but ultimately rewarding. I hope it gets you what you want out of it. :)

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Good points. I personally and many people won't read het about characters or people we slash - I think that statement clarifies the point quite well. I don't read het fics about characters I like to read slash fics about either (for example, I'd rather clean my shower with a toothbrush than read Star Wars het fic).

I get the impression that some slashers won't read *anything* with heterosexual pairings, or if they do, that they are disgusted by them. Not just dislike or are disappointed by, but are actually disgusted by. Perhaps that's not true, but if it is then I think there's an issue there.

I'm not annoyed by people who only read VigOrli and I apologize if it comes across that way. I was admittedly disappointed to lose a lot of readers, but it was ultimately my choice, just as it's yours about what to read, and I respect that. There are many fandoms/pairings I'm not into and don't read, also.

I do hope the direction my writing is going is where I want to go. I'd like it to be less lonely, but I'd also like to be a millionaire writer, too. ;) Right now I'm happy doing what I do and still being part of a community where others are making their own dreams come true, whether that's in different fandoms or original fiction or getting their photography into National Geographic.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

As an addendum, just now as I was washing dishes I was thinking back to my original post, and realized I was focusing mostly on HP fandom when I was thinking of BNFs and BFFs and all that crap.

I see a real difference in the HP and RPS fandoms - which is why I left HP in the first place, and why I'm still friends with RPS folks even now that I'm not in that fandom anymore.

You've been part of both fandoms as well - what do you think?

[elfscribe5.livejournal.com]

Hey sweetie, you know what, I could have totally written this whole post. I've been feeling much like this lately. I'm so far beyond being a BNF that I don't even know what flame wars are going on - nor do I want to - I avoid all that like the plague.
I write LOTR stuff, because I had a deep love for Tolkien's creation way before the movies and when I discovered fanfic, it was great to be able to write what I loved and have an actual audience. But I usually only get a handful of comments, mostly from a select group of wonderful like-minded friends. I've never been popular, even when LOTR was at its height. Do you have any idea what the magic formula is for being popular? Hell if I do. For sure, it's not about being able to write well. The best fics, i.e. original with strong plots and characterization and with a poetic sense of language are usually not the popular ones.

You're also right that half of it seems to be about marketing -i.e. whether or not people have heard of you- sometimes that seems to come with a buzz, whether created through a flamewar or what.

For me to be inspired enough to write in another fandom, I'd have to love the original it was based on, and be fanatic enough to learn all the canon. I don't care to do that just to troll for popularity and mass readership. Not worth it, really, when ultimately what I'd like to do, like you, is write original fic - which few people would probably be interested in reading, because it seems they need visuals, moviestar faces to go along with it. So there we are, back to writing what we love and hoping there are a few souls out there interested in reading what we have to write.
Btw, the pieces I've read of yours are very well done. [Pets you. Gives you a friendly hug. It turns even more friendly - erm, yeah.]

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think it's a little sad that so many of the best authors are so unknown. On the other hand, we all like different things and that's ok.

Some fandoms have a lot more flaming and the things I mentioned above than others. Like marketing, attention isn't always positive, even if it gets you noticed. I'd rather be ignored than have everyone talk about how much I suck. ;)

It's interesting what you say about original fiction. I recently wrote a long story and when I started, I had specific actors in mind as the characters. As I wrote, though, I really felt like they became original. When someone who read it asked me "So is Rodrigo really Orlando?" I felt disappointed that Rodrigo wasn't himself in their minds. That's so silly though - I can't control what my readers think. And I know I wouldn't want that when I'm a reader.

Thanks for the compliments. They are always nice to have, even if I'm trying to let go of the notion of actively *needing* them. :)

*snuggles*

[astrojen.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed reading your thoughts, Sal. There's a lot of stuff in there that I found I feel the same about.

And yes...Troy DID suck! ;)

Jen ;->

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Good thing there was all that hot manflesh to occupy us. ;)

[helena-s-renn.livejournal.com]

i'm almost afraid to reply because i always seem to stick my foot up my arse in my mouth. i go through periods of tolerance and periods of annoyance with the whole thing. i don't consider myself a bnf but i do like the f/b that i get; i won't lie about that. if i switched fandoms, no doubt much of my current flist would drop me like a potato... but then why are we here? to get off on what does it for us.

your remark about 'allergic to het' made me laugh. i've wondered the same thing many times. it really gives me a charge when i can 'make' them read it anyway. i doubt i'll ever quit writing the odd het every so often.

i do know you're a witty, detail-oriented writer and you have a style that is inimitable. maybe your true audience isn't "here." i do wish you luck with whatever you do, and know that i will continue reading you as long as you post.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't get me wrong - I love feedback! LIke I said, I'm not asserting that I'm above it all, just exploring that I'm not as driven by it, that I've made my peace (today) with not getting much anymore.

And absolutely, people should read what gets them off - I know I do. There are lots of fandoms/pairings I won't read. I'm don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I haven't been brave enough to write het, or it just hasn't called to me in the fandoms I read. I susepct I'll be writing some as I start with original fiction though. :)

*blushes* Thank you! I'm not really worried about my audience - even if it's just me, for today, I'm ok with that. And thank you for reading. Compliments from people I admire are so flattering!

*smooch*

[foxrafer.livejournal.com]

I hate to start with yet more questions, but what does BFG and BNF stand for? I get their basic meaning I think in the context but I'm curious what the actual acronyms stand for.

Somehow I never see flame wars. I don't know if my range in the LOTR fandom is so limited that I never come across one, or if it's just my habit of not reading other comments (sometimes I do, but not until after I've left one of my own). I think that's why I kind of have a pollyanna feeling about everyone in this community; I haven't really seen much of the "dark side" of anyone yet.

I definitely have favorite authors, but I try to read anyone if they're writing a pairing that I like. I'm unusual because I'll read just about any pairing with the LOTR boys (I include Eric in that group, he just fits with that group for me). If I don't know a tv show or movie I tend not to read those fics, but sometimes I make an exception. The biggest no read for me is if I don't know who the people are. Just seeing a picture of them doesn't help, I need to feel like I know something about them to enjoy the fic if that makes sense. And I think the only thing I don't read are kids (Harry Potter and, unfortunately for him since he's like mid-20s now, Elijah because I think of him as a 6 year old still - I know, it's silly), but just about anything else LOTR-related is fair game.

When I was strictly a reader I did always try to leave comments whenever I read something. I'm a bit wimpy, though. I don't gush if I didn't like it but I do try to say something positive, even if it's just a phrase that I liked a lot. Now that I've started to write I understand more about where you're coming from. It's weird to put something out there only to be met by deafening silence. I think that's probably why I always try to say something.

I know that I'll never be a popular writer, partly because I'm not as good as others, partly because I don't/can't write smut, but also because I'm too new. I've "heard" so many people say they don't read authors they don't know because they can't take reading poor grammar or horrible fics. I sometimes feel like shouting how do you know it's going to be horrible unless you read it, but I'm not going to change anyone's minds so just let it be. I've also been writing a variety of pairings, so I know that the strict VigBean ladies aren't going to read my Karl/Viggo or my OrliBean even if I begged. And I've only written one VigOrli and since that's the dominant group out there (or so it seems) those ladies are never going to look at my stuff. I think I've decided if the 5 or 6 people I regular communicate with comment on one of my fics if it features their favorite pairing I'll be happy. So far that's been the case, and I think if I don't expect anything more than that I can keep my esteem and ego in tact.

I think I only discovered your writing through the Eric Bana/Ewan McGregor 50kw series (which is why I was surprised when you said you're not into big muscly men; Eric is definitely not a pale pretty boy :-), but maybe it's more of The Rock or Arnold sort of muscly) and I love how you tell a story. But I often don't find writers unless they post in one of the comms; I imagine you'd be discovered by a lot of people who are newer to this fandom if your stories were crossposted. Although you may be doing that; if you're writing mostly Harry Potter I wouldn't be seeing those fics on LOTR comms.

Anyway, writing just because you love to is really the goal, and although I do I'm still in the place where I need some kind of outside confirmation that it's not total crap. One day I hope the lack of any comments won't sting as much as it sometimes does.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

BFG - Big Fan Girl. BNF - Big Name Fan. Both mean someone who is very well-known and popular in the fandom community itself, someone *everyone* had friended and whose fics *everyone* had read.

I never saw flame wars in any fandom other than Harry Potter. That's the fandom I'm currently observing from the outside though, so that's where a lot of this is coming from.

The biggest no read for me is if I don't know who the people are. Just seeing a picture of them doesn't help, I need to feel like I know something about them to enjoy the fic if that makes sense.

Me too - if I don't have that connection, then I don't really bother reading unless I have some other very unusual incentive.

It's definitely a challenge for a new writer to attract readers - I think communities are really the only way to do that. i usually give newbies a try, but I do have my own personal criteria on whether or not I read more than a few paragraphs, and I avoid certain ratings/warnings/genres.

I personally think writing a variety of pairings is a good way to start fresh and explore new things. To each their own, of course. :)

Eric is definitely not a pale pretty boy - *laughs* No, but he's also hearofslash's character, and I do think he's a fun one. And I do like him, even if he's not my physical ideal.

I should possibly get off my lazy ass and crosspost more, if i want more readers. I'll give that some thought. ;)

I think we all need confirmation/support from others. That's what is so great about LJ!

[rifleman-s.livejournal.com]

I was confused by the BFG and BNF ? (Still not very well up in LJ abbreviations! *grins*) However, it didn't stop me reading!

You talk an awful lot of sense and I could only sit here and nod and say "yes exactly" at the end of every sentence.

"We don't have to agree about everything. How could we broaden each others' horizons if we did?" is exactly right - and we can also (if we have half a brain) pick and choose what we read, thereby avoiding anything like flaming and its consequences.

Thank you for putting it all so succinctly.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

BFG - Big Fan Girl. BNF - Big Name Fan. Both mean someone who is very well-known and popular in the fandom community itself, someone *everyone* had friended and whose fics *everyone* had read.

Thank *you* for the agreement! It was a nice exercise to explore my thoughts on fandom and my place in it, and why that place will never be a central one. And how, finally, I'm coming to terms with that and enjoying it. :)

[naotalba.livejournal.com]

Just a little note to say I am friending you. I love your POTC and Star Wars stuff, and I read your RPS even though I feel guilty about reading RPS.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Welcome! Thans for reading, whatever tickles your fancy. No pressure from me to read anything you're not interested in, I promise. :)