guh - babies in fic

[salixbabylon]

Over my lunch break I was reading a story that progressively turned more and more into the kind of thing I don't read at all, but well, it was that or just sit there and *think*, so I read it.

Alpha Male and Beta Male have some underlying attraction. Due to something weird/magical, Beta Male is turned into a girl. Yay! Now they don't have to deal with any latent homosexual urges! Romance blooms, affection and lust are declared, and they get it on. But, uh-oh -- Beta Fe/Male forgot about birth control and now a little bundle of joy is coming! Bonding ceremony, birth story, love and sap until you could drown in the tears.

I don't understand why such stories literally turn my stomach. I forced myself to read the whole thing as an exercise in "why don't I like this?" Let's explore, shall we?

I am bisexual - I like heterosexual sex. I sometimes read and enjoy heterosexual smut. So that's not it.

I admit that I do have some minor issues with transgendered people, but that's not it either, at least not in these stories. And in today's fic, that aspect was even rather well-handled. So that's not it either.

I don't dislike children. I don't particularly blanket-like them, either, though, as most women seem to say they do. To me, that's like saying "oh, I love the elderly" - a bizarre statement implying that the elderly are all alike and one gets along with all of them equally well. I like some babies/kids; I don't particularly like others. I definitely don't have much experience with them. So that's one aspect of it.

I got married in a fairly traditional heterosexual wedding, which I wish had been quirkier, but still. I have no objections to bonding ceremonies. I have always been pleased to be included i ceremonies recognizing love, even when I think the couple is badly matched and won't last. So that's not it.

I think the part that chaps my hide is the "and then they lived happily ever after"-ness of it all, and the ASSUMPTION that having a baby is the ONLY way to achieve such bliss. The final step to perfection.

Sure, having a baby probably brings a lot to your life. And no, I'm sure that in my childless state I can't even imagine the utter joy your little ones bring you.

But uh, reality check - most of the parents I know have stated that their marriages have definitely suffered as a result of having children. Not always permanently, and of course it's possible that parenting will bring a couple closer together in a positive way (maybe I just hear the negative stuff more because my friends need to vent). I'm not saying kids fuck up your partnerships, but I am saying they have an impact, and usually one that leads to a lot less fucking in the hallway because you simply can't wait until you're inside the bedroom.

And if the point of the fucking story is these two GUYS FUCKING, then why on EARTH would I care about them getting married or having a baby and living happily fucking ever after in domestic fucking bliss??????

(Plus, could you PLEASE make a fucking EFFORT to NOT turn them into whiny crying GIRLS if they're going to shack up, get hitched, and reproduce? Please? Do you know guys who act like that? Who cry the 946th time their lover says "I love you"? No. You don't. Trust me.)

If you want your gay male characters to adopt babies and live happily ever after, fine. Take a glance at the statistics to see how rare that is, but if you choose to incorporate it, fine. BUT PUT A FUCKING WARNING ON THE STORY, so that when they stop FUCKING and start changing diapers and cooing about what a miracle the little bitsy adorable poos are, I DON'T HAVE TO READ IT.

and mpreg -- Jesus Fucking Christ, JUST SAY NO



Yes, I have ISSUES all over the place about having babies in my own real life. I just want my men to act like men and just FUCK and not have babies and birth control and motherhood worm its way into my escapist recreational reading. Is that so bloody much to ask?

*rant*rave*

*collapse*

Wow. That was quite a rant. I think that was building for a really long time. You can de-friend me now, if you must.

Respectful discussions of differences of opinion are always welcomed. Flames are not.

Comments

[melle.livejournal.com]

here, have an icon

i agree with a lot of what you said. i do like the occasional mpreg story, though it usually has more to do with liking the author than the genre. i mean, if a writer is good enough to make me suspend disbelief, then i feel like, 'mission accomplished' - great writing.

that doesn't even come close to describing the majority of that genre though, so i can see how it's gotten a bad name over time.

also, i agree with you about men being MEN, even though i have to really check to make sure the ones i write don't turn into complete girls. because, well. i'm a girl. but yes, by all means, read the dialogue out loud before you post your story. if you can't think of at least three male friends who would say what your characters are saying, then step AWAY from the "submit" button. :)

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

I would respond coherently but I'm laughing my ass off so much I'm afraid all I can really muster is a hearty agreement.

I read/write slash because I like to read/write/fantasize about GAY SEX.

Last time I looked, STRAIGHT PORN didn't involve having babies. It's about STRAIGHT SEX.

So why would anyone put having babies in GAY PORN? I dunno, maybe the author got confused and thought she was writing a romance novel.

and mpreg -- Jesus Fucking Christ, JUST SAY NO

*cackles with glee*

I heart you, snog you AND three-dots you, darling! Is it possible to friend you AGAIN??

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

Well, I have a few squicks and mpreg is one of them. Yet I have managed to read three (jassy, darcy and chaosmanor) and didn't get too horrified by those. ;) Maybe because the ones I read are by decent writers who don't let that happen to their characters.

As for the rest, yes, well. Some I agree and some I don't, and who really cares? We all have different stuff we like and don't. Some readers seem to really like their guys girly, I assume. I'm not one of them, but hey.

What's that LJ cliche? This is your journal, rant about whatever you like?

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

I read/write slash because I like to read/write/fantasize about GAY SEX.

I read/write slash because I enjoy the particular characters and dynamics of relationships that are outside societal convention. It's not just about porn for me. (Naturally, the porn helps quite a bit. ;))

The reasons for reading or writing slash are as diverse as the people who do it, I think. Hopefully there is enough out there that we can all read what most appeals to us.

[lennongirl.livejournal.com]

Word :D

[sarafoop.livejournal.com]

Babies do not make you happily ever after. They make you totally nuts, wreck your favorite stuff, and ruin your sex life. They should be banned! ;)

[lennongirl.livejournal.com]

Hm, yeah, I agree with Vogie and Mel mostly.

Mpreg is a squick of mine, too. I just can't bring myself to read it, although I know I'm missing out stories by writers who are awesome. But I just can't. As crack maybe, but that's it. Maybe it's got to do with my other issue, the man as man issue. I don't know.

I know I was rather sappy when I started out - for my taste, so maybe I shouldn't be too loud here:P

But taste differs and mine has changed and each to their own, as I always like to say. I hear you when you ask for manly man. Same here.

[tillie1202.livejournal.com]

LOL, I think that cliche only works if you're the only one who reads your own LJ. Otherwise someone inevitably gets offended. :P

[taureliell.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on the MPREG, don't see the point. As for turning males into females, again I don't see the point of doing that.
Regarding children, I have two. I was told I couldn't have any but miracles do happen, and I adore them. BUT, they are hard work, infuriating, expensive and a constant source of worry for the rest of your life. (Remember, I ADORE my children to bits.) To people who aren't sure about the kid thing and go any have them anyway just because they are expected/think it might be a good idea/help their marriage, that to me is the biggest mistake possible, so to those that don't want children I say well done for having the courage of your convictions. Good for you for speaking out!

[joey112.livejournal.com]

I'm here *in slash fandom* for the male male sex. I don't get the sudden change of a character to female. Hey I'd read a transgender/transvestite story, no problem. But damn. I love complications. I read mpreg without remorse or apology, but don't change pregnant Viggo into a woman. There's only so far I'll go.

then again

I'm only happy when it rains...

[andolinn.livejournal.com]

I think I may be laughing too hard to type. (Or perhaps it's the roofers over my head... *sigh*)

Yes, yes, yes, yes! We read slash for fucking. We read slash for men fucking!

When I was a mere teen (many, many years ago) I used to read Harlequin romances (because they were really all I could find) and they were all about boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, boy marries girl...fade to black...with the implication that then boy would finally get to make love to girl and 2.4 children would subsequently be produced. And the implication that that was the only road to happiness. I think that our society feels a vested interest in keeping women believing that.

As you have pointed out quite eloquently, this is often not the case.

I think what is going on in many of these mpreg/girly men stories is that women (especially very young women) are trying to project this happily ever myth into slash because it is the one true path to happiness and because they cannot conceive of any other way to be happy.

I believe people can be happy having children and that they can be equally happy and productive members of our society without children. My husband and I found that we could not have children and so I have spent a good deal of time considering this, but I know a lot of couples who are actively choosing not to have kids. So I don't think it's true that all women love or want babies and I certainly don't think everyone would make a good parent.

Returning to the slash debate, I think that what we want in slash is to read about hot men having hot sex but that, as women, we also want some degree of emotion and relationship that gay men perhaps don't require in their porn. But we do want MEN having the relationships, not women with penises. So, again, perhaps this is where some of these miscreant writers are going astray.

I'll see your rant and raise you a novel...

[hiccupsweets.livejournal.com]

Double word XD

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

I'll respectfully disagreee with that particular anti-child rant.

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

And if you read my work you would see that it is overflowing in the characters and dynamics of relationships that are outside societal convention department. It's no "just about the porn" at all.

But they are stories about men. Men being together. Not men who magically turn into women. Or men who conveniently start acting like girls because it would be "aw"-inducing or solve a conflict easily. I believe that's what Salix was ranting about.

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I have read any of your work and wasn't making a suggestion that yours isn't something I would enjoy. I was just offering another perspective on why people read slash. Not everyone only reads it for gay sex/porn, which is what I thought you were asserting. If I was mistaken, please accept my apologies.

I understand Salix's rant, because I agree with a lot of it. But then maybe some actually enjoy reading about emasculated men? LOL. If that's the case, I can't argue with what people like. I was just attempting inclusion. I certainly meant no offense.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

sarafoop's 2 year old is driving her beyond nutty this week. :)

I am suspecting that today might have been another deodorant-on-the-walls day, or shaving cream on the cat, or sharpie pens on the table day, or something...

It's only Wednesday and that child's had quite a week!

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

*hug* She's having another day, isn't she? Maybe I can come take her for another walk sometime soon...

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

It's nice to hear that you agree. I haven't read an mpreg that I've liked yet, but I confess that I haven't yet read one by the authors who I know I like, who have written some recently... I do intend to give those a try and see if I like them better. I suspect it has a lot to do with the author/writing ability, as you indicate.

Writing men as men is hard difficult. I know I don't do the best of jobs, a lot of the time. I want to read emotion, so I think my characters come out a lot more emotionally-open than Real Men usually are.

Great caution - I should start a "rules for slash writers" list someday and include that one. :)

[jasmineskie.livejournal.com]

I wasn't sure if I should comment here or not, but what the hey. Thought you might like to hear from an mpreg writer as to why she's writing it. I respect that you don't like it, and don't worry, I'm not defriending anyone, you especially. *g* Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, likes and dislikes. I have a few of my own. I think that's only natural. :)

I never thought I would write an mpreg. My style is to write reality-based fiction, and mpreg is whoa... not reality. Especially RPS mpreg.

Then I got in a discussion on someone else's LJ one day, and she commented that she didn't like mpreg because it never sounded *real* to her. My muses went, "Hey... hmmm... I wonder if we could...." She also said she didn't like the cliches of the genre, i.e. girly!overly-emotional!Orlando because it was *always* Orlando who got pregnant. My Viggo muse looked at me sideways and said, "You really can't be thinking what I think you're thinking..."

Fifteen minutes later I had my premise. Over 100,000 words later, I'm still writing what's turned into an mpreg novel, although it's almost done now.

Writing this has been a challenge to me to constantly keep it "real" within the confines of the premise. The story is really about what these two men do when confronted with this situation, how it changes their lives, the adjustments they've had to make, and I've tried my hardest to keep their reactions real. That's one of the reasons the thing's so blasted long. I realized as I was writing that I couldn't do this story justice and keep to my intentions without making it novel length. I've done a whopping lot of research for this story on the medical side and tried to extrapolate for Viggo's (yes, Viggo's) situation. I've tried very hard to keep Viggo's reactions masculine, even when he's overly hormonal because pregnant and post-partum patients do get hormonal. The only unreal things I probably did was let Viggo continue to have a sex life while he was pregnant, and no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't give him pregnancy breasts. I was afraid my Viggo muse would never speak to me again. :P

A lot of people have told me the story sounds real, including the lj-er who inadvertantly gave me this plot bunny. So I guess I achieved my goal for the story.

I've put suitable warnings on it so people don't stumble across it by accident. I know I've lost regular readers who can't stomach mpreg, and that's okay. I wasn't sure anyone at all would read it when I started. I also write other things. I can't speak for anyone else who writes mpreg, but I'm not an immature girl who's pinning her fantasies about happily ever after on Viggo and Orlando having a kid (I think I read that in a comment above). I'm a mom myself and I know babies aren't all sweetness and light, but also a lot of lost sleep, dirty diapers, dirty clothes, and frustration, and I wouldn't trade any of it with my daughter for the world. With mpreg as with anything else, I'm in it for the story of two men and how they live their lives, including the sex and love.

Whew! Sorry for the long comment. *hugs* Hope I haven't offended you, that's not my intention.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

:) Glad you liked my ranting and raving.

Last time I looked, STRAIGHT PORN didn't involve having babies. It's about STRAIGHT SEX.

You are so much more succinct than I. No wonder I love you. :)

Whoop - double-friended! *beams*

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

I do intend to check out the mpregs by those authors - to try and give the subject a more fair trial, and I trust them to not write dreck, even if I end up still not caring for mpreg.

Some readers seem to really like their guys girly, I assume.

An excellent point, and I appreciate being reminded that others like and are looking for different things in fics than I am. :)

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

So far *crosses finger* I've actually not had any flames in my journal. I assume that's mostly because I'm not a BNF. (And I try to welcome respectful dissent, but who am I kidding - it's more that I don't have very many readers. ;)

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Manly men - ooh yeah baby. *drools* And it's not that I don't think a manly man can't be a tender and loving father (not that you're saying that - I'm just exploring my own thoughts). It's just that when I *want* from slash is hot sex and maybe some romance, depending on my mood. Or some kink. Or maybe all three.

Just not diapers, thanks. ;)

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Well, it's funny how nerve-wrecking speaking out can be, even in your own journal. *g* But I appreciate the response, and I'm glad to hear that your family plans turned out the way you wanted them to. As I said - I'm not anti-children, and I haven't even 100% decided against them for my real life, I just get tired of reading about babies when what I want is some escapist sex with maybe a little romance thrown in. ;)

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Much as I enjoy hearing the agreements, it's nice to hear a POV for the people who *do* enjoy mpreg - thank you for sharing it. I had not really considered the "complications" angle before, and you're quite right -- well done, that potentially could add quite a lot to a story. It certainly does shake up the usual plot and character dynamics!

I'm clearly going to have to check out the mpregs that I've been avoiding, written by some of the better authors. :)