guh - babies in fic

[salixbabylon]

Over my lunch break I was reading a story that progressively turned more and more into the kind of thing I don't read at all, but well, it was that or just sit there and *think*, so I read it.

Alpha Male and Beta Male have some underlying attraction. Due to something weird/magical, Beta Male is turned into a girl. Yay! Now they don't have to deal with any latent homosexual urges! Romance blooms, affection and lust are declared, and they get it on. But, uh-oh -- Beta Fe/Male forgot about birth control and now a little bundle of joy is coming! Bonding ceremony, birth story, love and sap until you could drown in the tears.

I don't understand why such stories literally turn my stomach. I forced myself to read the whole thing as an exercise in "why don't I like this?" Let's explore, shall we?

I am bisexual - I like heterosexual sex. I sometimes read and enjoy heterosexual smut. So that's not it.

I admit that I do have some minor issues with transgendered people, but that's not it either, at least not in these stories. And in today's fic, that aspect was even rather well-handled. So that's not it either.

I don't dislike children. I don't particularly blanket-like them, either, though, as most women seem to say they do. To me, that's like saying "oh, I love the elderly" - a bizarre statement implying that the elderly are all alike and one gets along with all of them equally well. I like some babies/kids; I don't particularly like others. I definitely don't have much experience with them. So that's one aspect of it.

I got married in a fairly traditional heterosexual wedding, which I wish had been quirkier, but still. I have no objections to bonding ceremonies. I have always been pleased to be included i ceremonies recognizing love, even when I think the couple is badly matched and won't last. So that's not it.

I think the part that chaps my hide is the "and then they lived happily ever after"-ness of it all, and the ASSUMPTION that having a baby is the ONLY way to achieve such bliss. The final step to perfection.

Sure, having a baby probably brings a lot to your life. And no, I'm sure that in my childless state I can't even imagine the utter joy your little ones bring you.

But uh, reality check - most of the parents I know have stated that their marriages have definitely suffered as a result of having children. Not always permanently, and of course it's possible that parenting will bring a couple closer together in a positive way (maybe I just hear the negative stuff more because my friends need to vent). I'm not saying kids fuck up your partnerships, but I am saying they have an impact, and usually one that leads to a lot less fucking in the hallway because you simply can't wait until you're inside the bedroom.

And if the point of the fucking story is these two GUYS FUCKING, then why on EARTH would I care about them getting married or having a baby and living happily fucking ever after in domestic fucking bliss??????

(Plus, could you PLEASE make a fucking EFFORT to NOT turn them into whiny crying GIRLS if they're going to shack up, get hitched, and reproduce? Please? Do you know guys who act like that? Who cry the 946th time their lover says "I love you"? No. You don't. Trust me.)

If you want your gay male characters to adopt babies and live happily ever after, fine. Take a glance at the statistics to see how rare that is, but if you choose to incorporate it, fine. BUT PUT A FUCKING WARNING ON THE STORY, so that when they stop FUCKING and start changing diapers and cooing about what a miracle the little bitsy adorable poos are, I DON'T HAVE TO READ IT.

and mpreg -- Jesus Fucking Christ, JUST SAY NO



Yes, I have ISSUES all over the place about having babies in my own real life. I just want my men to act like men and just FUCK and not have babies and birth control and motherhood worm its way into my escapist recreational reading. Is that so bloody much to ask?

*rant*rave*

*collapse*

Wow. That was quite a rant. I think that was building for a really long time. You can de-friend me now, if you must.

Respectful discussions of differences of opinion are always welcomed. Flames are not.

Comments

[melle.livejournal.com]

here, have an icon

i agree with a lot of what you said. i do like the occasional mpreg story, though it usually has more to do with liking the author than the genre. i mean, if a writer is good enough to make me suspend disbelief, then i feel like, 'mission accomplished' - great writing.

that doesn't even come close to describing the majority of that genre though, so i can see how it's gotten a bad name over time.

also, i agree with you about men being MEN, even though i have to really check to make sure the ones i write don't turn into complete girls. because, well. i'm a girl. but yes, by all means, read the dialogue out loud before you post your story. if you can't think of at least three male friends who would say what your characters are saying, then step AWAY from the "submit" button. :)

[lennongirl.livejournal.com]

Word :D

[hiccupsweets.livejournal.com]

Double word XD

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

It's nice to hear that you agree. I haven't read an mpreg that I've liked yet, but I confess that I haven't yet read one by the authors who I know I like, who have written some recently... I do intend to give those a try and see if I like them better. I suspect it has a lot to do with the author/writing ability, as you indicate.

Writing men as men is hard difficult. I know I don't do the best of jobs, a lot of the time. I want to read emotion, so I think my characters come out a lot more emotionally-open than Real Men usually are.

Great caution - I should start a "rules for slash writers" list someday and include that one. :)

[redrouged.livejournal.com]

triple word.

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

I would respond coherently but I'm laughing my ass off so much I'm afraid all I can really muster is a hearty agreement.

I read/write slash because I like to read/write/fantasize about GAY SEX.

Last time I looked, STRAIGHT PORN didn't involve having babies. It's about STRAIGHT SEX.

So why would anyone put having babies in GAY PORN? I dunno, maybe the author got confused and thought she was writing a romance novel.

and mpreg -- Jesus Fucking Christ, JUST SAY NO

*cackles with glee*

I heart you, snog you AND three-dots you, darling! Is it possible to friend you AGAIN??

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

I read/write slash because I like to read/write/fantasize about GAY SEX.

I read/write slash because I enjoy the particular characters and dynamics of relationships that are outside societal convention. It's not just about porn for me. (Naturally, the porn helps quite a bit. ;))

The reasons for reading or writing slash are as diverse as the people who do it, I think. Hopefully there is enough out there that we can all read what most appeals to us.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

:) Glad you liked my ranting and raving.

Last time I looked, STRAIGHT PORN didn't involve having babies. It's about STRAIGHT SEX.

You are so much more succinct than I. No wonder I love you. :)

Whoop - double-friended! *beams*

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

Well, I have a few squicks and mpreg is one of them. Yet I have managed to read three (jassy, darcy and chaosmanor) and didn't get too horrified by those. ;) Maybe because the ones I read are by decent writers who don't let that happen to their characters.

As for the rest, yes, well. Some I agree and some I don't, and who really cares? We all have different stuff we like and don't. Some readers seem to really like their guys girly, I assume. I'm not one of them, but hey.

What's that LJ cliche? This is your journal, rant about whatever you like?

[tillie1202.livejournal.com]

LOL, I think that cliche only works if you're the only one who reads your own LJ. Otherwise someone inevitably gets offended. :P

[sarafoop.livejournal.com]

Babies do not make you happily ever after. They make you totally nuts, wreck your favorite stuff, and ruin your sex life. They should be banned! ;)

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

I'll respectfully disagreee with that particular anti-child rant.

[lennongirl.livejournal.com]

Hm, yeah, I agree with Vogie and Mel mostly.

Mpreg is a squick of mine, too. I just can't bring myself to read it, although I know I'm missing out stories by writers who are awesome. But I just can't. As crack maybe, but that's it. Maybe it's got to do with my other issue, the man as man issue. I don't know.

I know I was rather sappy when I started out - for my taste, so maybe I shouldn't be too loud here:P

But taste differs and mine has changed and each to their own, as I always like to say. I hear you when you ask for manly man. Same here.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Manly men - ooh yeah baby. *drools* And it's not that I don't think a manly man can't be a tender and loving father (not that you're saying that - I'm just exploring my own thoughts). It's just that when I *want* from slash is hot sex and maybe some romance, depending on my mood. Or some kink. Or maybe all three.

Just not diapers, thanks. ;)

[taureliell.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on the MPREG, don't see the point. As for turning males into females, again I don't see the point of doing that.
Regarding children, I have two. I was told I couldn't have any but miracles do happen, and I adore them. BUT, they are hard work, infuriating, expensive and a constant source of worry for the rest of your life. (Remember, I ADORE my children to bits.) To people who aren't sure about the kid thing and go any have them anyway just because they are expected/think it might be a good idea/help their marriage, that to me is the biggest mistake possible, so to those that don't want children I say well done for having the courage of your convictions. Good for you for speaking out!

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Well, it's funny how nerve-wrecking speaking out can be, even in your own journal. *g* But I appreciate the response, and I'm glad to hear that your family plans turned out the way you wanted them to. As I said - I'm not anti-children, and I haven't even 100% decided against them for my real life, I just get tired of reading about babies when what I want is some escapist sex with maybe a little romance thrown in. ;)

[joey112.livejournal.com]

I'm here *in slash fandom* for the male male sex. I don't get the sudden change of a character to female. Hey I'd read a transgender/transvestite story, no problem. But damn. I love complications. I read mpreg without remorse or apology, but don't change pregnant Viggo into a woman. There's only so far I'll go.

then again

I'm only happy when it rains...

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Much as I enjoy hearing the agreements, it's nice to hear a POV for the people who *do* enjoy mpreg - thank you for sharing it. I had not really considered the "complications" angle before, and you're quite right -- well done, that potentially could add quite a lot to a story. It certainly does shake up the usual plot and character dynamics!

I'm clearly going to have to check out the mpregs that I've been avoiding, written by some of the better authors. :)

[andolinn.livejournal.com]

I think I may be laughing too hard to type. (Or perhaps it's the roofers over my head... *sigh*)

Yes, yes, yes, yes! We read slash for fucking. We read slash for men fucking!

When I was a mere teen (many, many years ago) I used to read Harlequin romances (because they were really all I could find) and they were all about boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, boy marries girl...fade to black...with the implication that then boy would finally get to make love to girl and 2.4 children would subsequently be produced. And the implication that that was the only road to happiness. I think that our society feels a vested interest in keeping women believing that.

As you have pointed out quite eloquently, this is often not the case.

I think what is going on in many of these mpreg/girly men stories is that women (especially very young women) are trying to project this happily ever myth into slash because it is the one true path to happiness and because they cannot conceive of any other way to be happy.

I believe people can be happy having children and that they can be equally happy and productive members of our society without children. My husband and I found that we could not have children and so I have spent a good deal of time considering this, but I know a lot of couples who are actively choosing not to have kids. So I don't think it's true that all women love or want babies and I certainly don't think everyone would make a good parent.

Returning to the slash debate, I think that what we want in slash is to read about hot men having hot sex but that, as women, we also want some degree of emotion and relationship that gay men perhaps don't require in their porn. But we do want MEN having the relationships, not women with penises. So, again, perhaps this is where some of these miscreant writers are going astray.

I'll see your rant and raise you a novel...

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

*nods* I'm with you on all of that, particularly the reminder about the impact of Harlequin-style romance novels. I read my fair share of those, too, and it wasn't until much later that I realized how thoroughly our culture perpetuates the believe that you grow up, fall in love, get married, and have kids. That is just what you do. It's been very weird considering NOT doing that, for the last several years.

Although I am also thankful for those commentors who posted a reminder that some people read slash for other reasons than just the sex. Sometimes I too read for the romance and relationship, and I do want happily ever after.

But right now, I just want the HAWTMANSEX and NOW. :)

[jasmineskie.livejournal.com]

I wasn't sure if I should comment here or not, but what the hey. Thought you might like to hear from an mpreg writer as to why she's writing it. I respect that you don't like it, and don't worry, I'm not defriending anyone, you especially. *g* Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, likes and dislikes. I have a few of my own. I think that's only natural. :)

I never thought I would write an mpreg. My style is to write reality-based fiction, and mpreg is whoa... not reality. Especially RPS mpreg.

Then I got in a discussion on someone else's LJ one day, and she commented that she didn't like mpreg because it never sounded *real* to her. My muses went, "Hey... hmmm... I wonder if we could...." She also said she didn't like the cliches of the genre, i.e. girly!overly-emotional!Orlando because it was *always* Orlando who got pregnant. My Viggo muse looked at me sideways and said, "You really can't be thinking what I think you're thinking..."

Fifteen minutes later I had my premise. Over 100,000 words later, I'm still writing what's turned into an mpreg novel, although it's almost done now.

Writing this has been a challenge to me to constantly keep it "real" within the confines of the premise. The story is really about what these two men do when confronted with this situation, how it changes their lives, the adjustments they've had to make, and I've tried my hardest to keep their reactions real. That's one of the reasons the thing's so blasted long. I realized as I was writing that I couldn't do this story justice and keep to my intentions without making it novel length. I've done a whopping lot of research for this story on the medical side and tried to extrapolate for Viggo's (yes, Viggo's) situation. I've tried very hard to keep Viggo's reactions masculine, even when he's overly hormonal because pregnant and post-partum patients do get hormonal. The only unreal things I probably did was let Viggo continue to have a sex life while he was pregnant, and no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't give him pregnancy breasts. I was afraid my Viggo muse would never speak to me again. :P

A lot of people have told me the story sounds real, including the lj-er who inadvertantly gave me this plot bunny. So I guess I achieved my goal for the story.

I've put suitable warnings on it so people don't stumble across it by accident. I know I've lost regular readers who can't stomach mpreg, and that's okay. I wasn't sure anyone at all would read it when I started. I also write other things. I can't speak for anyone else who writes mpreg, but I'm not an immature girl who's pinning her fantasies about happily ever after on Viggo and Orlando having a kid (I think I read that in a comment above). I'm a mom myself and I know babies aren't all sweetness and light, but also a lot of lost sleep, dirty diapers, dirty clothes, and frustration, and I wouldn't trade any of it with my daughter for the world. With mpreg as with anything else, I'm in it for the story of two men and how they live their lives, including the sex and love.

Whew! Sorry for the long comment. *hugs* Hope I haven't offended you, that's not my intention.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

You are always welcome to comment - and I'm grateful that you felt comfortable doing so, as your mpreg is one that I have not been reading, but think that I will now, just to see what a good one might be like. :)

I couldn't do this story justice and keep to my intentions without making it novel length.

And that might be one problem (of many) which the ones I've read suffer from - not nearly enough time spent on making the whole scenario believable.

So no offense at all - that was a very well-written, non-defensive, quite respectful post. Thank you for it. I have things to think about now that I hadn't before. *hug*

[sileya.livejournal.com]

Heh...I bet I know what AU at Master/Apprentice you stumbled over...I did the same thing and ran screaming the other direction.

There's only been one remotely somewhat MPREG that was more "sci fi" than MPREG that I could stand to read, and thank heaven, it was glossed over as a plot point rather than THE plot.

MPREG, to me, is just asking too much suspension of disbelief. I don't mind if others write it, I just don't read it. I do get annoyed when there's not a warning, tho.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

*nods* I bet you do know which fic it was, and yeah, it was at MA. :) Been reading a lot there, recently.

So what was the good one you read?

[nimmy.livejournal.com]

Hell Yeah!

Nothing shits me more than reading men who act like women (including the constant crying and m-preg) - why don't the authors just write a f**king Mary-Sue and be done with it!

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

And I thought I was being blunt. *throws big wet kisses your way*

[abluegirl.livejournal.com]

Perhaps its the gushy, smooshy cutesy-ness that's the problem. Heck, i'm having a baby and i'm seriously repelled by ultra gushy-smooshy cutesy-ness. Doesn't mean i don't appreciate the cute, but when it is *contrived* or extreme, or taken too far, its just kinda... gross. Like cute overload.

*shrugs*

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Perhaps its the gushy, smooshy cutesy-ness that's the problem.

*ding*ding*ding* We have a winner! The more comments come up and the more I think about it, it's not the implausibility, but the poor (imo) characterizations, crying men, and the SAP that makes me retch.

But I'm still going to keep pouting over the lack of hot sex, too. ;)

Thanks for pointing that out so succinctly!

[redrouged.livejournal.com]

I agree with what vogue said, that I read it more for the writers than for mpreg. I tried to see what people enjoy about reading mpreg for mpreg's sake so once, I went trying to find mpreg fics. but omfg, I found fic where the preggers guy developed a whole uterus and vagina and then they proceeded to have hermaphrodite sex a couple of times in the fic. I think I almost died of squickiness during the reading but I was so morbidly curious that I finished the fic. I still shudder when I think of it.

And the part about guys being even girlier than me, is like, if your character is going to be so girly, write het or femme slash or something. I mean, overly emotional/sensitive characters just make me go wtf.

Okay, while we're here, I'll just say how annoying OOC FPS fics are. Some are soooo OOC that I feel like I'm reading about 2 OCs in a LOTR universe or something. Just. So. Icky.

[redrouged.livejournal.com]

Ooops, didn't mean that OCs are icky, but that writing your own characters with names of two characters is icky cause it's like cheating the readers to get more hits or something. Just, no.

[chaosmanor.livejournal.com]

I have four children. And I wrote an epic mpreg.

I can't actually tell you now why I wrote it, except that I read a *really* bad mpreg, and then jasmineskie posted the beginning of her realy cool mpreg.

Kids trash your life. I am currently in offsrping jail, on dialup at my ex-wife's house, because our 8 year old is unwell and off school.

I *loathe* male characters who giggle. If you insepct my fic, you will discover that it is male giggle free. Men do not giggle, unless you happen to be writing a particularly immature Elijah, then you can get away with a giggle. Viggo does not giggle. Orlando does not giggle. They *chuckle*. Or *guffaw*. Or laugh.

Some men cry. Occasionally. that's all you can get away with. a male character is much more likely to want to cry, than to actually do it.

They do fart, and scratch their balls. A lot. All praise to dalehead for her fabulous farting scenes in Walk on By.

Um, I seem to have had a mild rant in your lj. sorry? You and me need to put together some kind of list of this stuff. You can do this, and I'll dedicate entire pages to the mechanics of POV, and how many times in a row a man can actually become hard.

[lennongirl.livejournal.com]

I *loathe* male characters who giggle.

*weeps*
I am so there with you.

[daniko.livejournal.com]

I came to slash in part to escape romance novels, of which I've read an embarassingly large number. I got frustrated by the imposed gender roles, the cutsey-ness, the female whining (and whining, and more whining), and yes, the babies who inconvenienced absolutely no-one (yeah, still whining).

I do read slash for more than the sex, although the sex has to be there. I read slash for the relationships. I do, however, want the relationships to be between MEN. One really cool thing about slash is that the better authors break away from the endless whining and slightly (or not so slightly) misogynistic power dynamics in a lot of het stories about love and relationships. It does little for me to have those elements brought back in.

I couldn't say whether I like MPREG in general because I've only read two: Jasmineskie's and Chaosmanor's. Needless to say, their stories were wonderful. But then, they were stories about MEN getting pregnant. Not "women with penises."

To me, if the characters are interesting and believably male, and the author stays true to that, almost any plot can work well.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Nothing wrong with romance novels - I certainly read my share. I'm sorry if I seemed to imply that they were inferior to slash; they no longer fit my personal taste, but they might again some day. And I do go back and forth between reading slash because I'm horny or because I want a good romantic swoony story. :)

To me, if the characters are interesting and believably male, and the author stays true to that, almost any plot can work well.

Very well said, thank you.

[undrockroll.livejournal.com]

way I see it... a smutfest is a smutfest, and a developed plot is a developed plot. I don't think anyone is right or wrong in this situation, it just comes down to what you like :) some people like their girlymen, some people like their manlymen, some people fall somewhere between. it's fiction, and as far as I'm concerned... anything goes :)

- the third mpreg author to molest your rant post

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Ooh, where's your mpreg - I'll add it to my reading list. :)

Thank you, also, for the very respectful reminder that different people like different things, including the things that set me off. And probably *they* are squicked or annoyed by the things *I* really enjoy in fics. And that we are both equally entitled to our own reading material. *g*

[arrowthroughme.livejournal.com]

I read most of the comments, but not all of them, so I guess I'll repeat some people's statements. Sorry about that.

I used to look down on fanfiction until I read a story which was written as beautifully as a 'serious' novel. A long time later I came across RPS, which I detested, again until I encoutered fiction totally believable and simply true in the best sense of the word. I never wanted to read AU until - you get my drift. I find myself constantly pushing and breaking through what I thought were my limits. Jassy's and Elaine's stories, so utterly different, totally changed my view on mpreg. I'm reading wingfic because of razzle. So far no one has written anything to convince me of vampirefic, but that's just my opinion and maybe the perfect fic for me is out there.

These days I'm convinced that any content is fine by me as long as the story is well-written and true in the sense of characterisation. I'm sure someone said it before (Jassy I think), it's like Robinson Crusoe, you place your characters in a total dilemma and then let them deal with it. I love stories that deal with everyday-life. And occasionally I love twists in that life.

My students often don't want to read science fiction, because they look down on it. With the advent of so-called 'phantasy' the more serious science fiction seems to have been marginalized. But it's just the same, you just give people an unusual perspective to look at normal problems.

Sorry, I didn't mean this to be that long.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

I find myself constantly pushing and breaking through what I thought were my limits.

Good point. I think I need to give mpreg another try, written by authors whose previous work I enjoy and respect.

These days I'm convinced that any content is fine by me as long as the story is well-written and true in the sense of characterisation.

Very well said - thank you. :)

[soar38.livejournal.com]

Mpreg I'm actually okay with, but I don't want to read a story that involves one of the characters I like changing sex in order to fulfill the heterosexual 'dream'. What's the point of liking a character if you want to change who they are.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

What's the point of liking a character if you want to change who they are.

Exactly! :)

Thanks for your thoughts!